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-   -   Help selecting a buffer (http://www.marine31online.com/forum/showthread.php?t=319)

magRT496 09-07-2016 12:37 AM

Help selecting a buffer
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hi Mike, I need some help selecting which buffer will work best for my needs.

I just bought a 2002 Proline 23 sport center console and it's in decent condition but could definitely use some attention.

The sides of the hull arent too bad, they still shine minimally and if there's and oxidation i cant see it. The tops of the gunwales and the stern/transom however are in bad shape. There's little to no shine, they get stained very easily, and there's even some chalkiness in certain spots. I attached a few pictures to give you an idea.

This buffer will be for personal use only. Ill be using it a few times per year on my boat and maybe once a year on my car. I have zero experience using a buffer and dont want to go overboard if i dont have to, but im not afraid to spend a little extra to get the right tool. Ive been looking at the marine 31 porter cable complete oxidation removal/polish kit as it seems the safest for the gel coat (burning the gel coat is a concern of mine). Please let me know your opinion, im excited to order the buffer and get the boat cleaned up.

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 12:29 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1410)

Hi Mike, I need some help selecting which buffer will work best for my needs.

I just bought a 2002 Proline 23 sport center console and it's in decent condition but could definitely use some attention.

The sides of the hull arent too bad, they still shine minimally and if there's and oxidation i cant see it. The tops of the gunwales and the stern/transom however are in bad shape. There's little to no shine, they get stained very easily, and there's even some chalkiness in certain spots. I attached a few pictures to give you an idea.

You're right, the boat doesn't look too bad. And NOW is the time to get on top of it before it gets bad because it's a LOT more work to

Undo bad


:)


Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1410)

This buffer will be for personal use only. Ill be using it a few times per year on my boat and maybe once a year on my car.

I have zero experience using a buffer and dont want to go overboard if i dont have to, but im not afraid to spend a little extra to get the right tool.

Ive been looking at the marine 31 porter cable complete oxidation removal/polish kit as it seems the safest for the gel coat (burning the gel coat is a concern of mine).

Please let me know your opinion, im excited to order the buffer and get the boat cleaned up.


When it comes to buffing out gel-coat boats, my experience is it's incredibly safe as it relates to "burning through" because gel-coats are thick.

Car paint is thin and that's where the fear of burning through the clearcoat is valid if a person is not careful or uses to aggressive of products or products.


Hang tight while I add your pictures to this thread for easier viewing.


:)

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 01:07 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Here's your boat...

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...console_01.jpg


http://www.marine31online.com/galler...console_02.jpg



The sides and larger flat areas will be easy to buff but getting into corners and tight areas will require more patience or knock them out by hand.


If the oxidation isn't bad like you say then you could use a one-step cleaner/wax and do the job in one step. Cleaner/waxes come in,

Light cleaning
Medium cleaning
Heavy cleaning

Then after you get the boat where you like it simply hit it once in a while with the same product to keep it up.

With a one step you go around the boat once.

With a two or three step product you go around the boat 2 to 3 times.

Generally speaking, doing more steps gets you better results but I'm a fan of one-step cleaner/waxes for their simplicity and time and energy savings and also for white boats since white is a lot more forgiving than dark colors.


Also, Gel-coats from my experience don't react well to soft foam pads. I've even seen hard, shiny gel-coats become duller when buffed with soft foam pads.


:)

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 01:08 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
The Porter Cable 7424XP is a stout polisher and my dual action polisher of choice for doing simple work or machine sanding (both in the boat world and the car world).

Unlike copies of the Porter Cable, this tool is double insulated and so there's much less of a shock issue if you're around water than the copies.

The other thing is THIN pads rotate MUCH BETTER than THICK pads when it comes to these types of simple dual action polishers.

Recently, Lake Country, Griot's and Meguiar's all introduced thin foam pads.

So if it were me, and I wanted to go with an entry level, in-expensive tool like the Porter Cable then I would go with the Lake Country 5.5" ThinPro pads.


The Marine31.com store doesn't show them in the pad section so below I've linked to them on the Autogeek.com store.

If you plan on doing all your work on land and water shock is not an issue then the Griot's copy of the the Porter Cable, offers more power and a lifetime warranty.

Both tools are available from Autogeek with 25' heavy duty cords already pre-wired in and this,

1. Preserves the factory warranty.

2. Protects the electronics in the tool. Too light of an extension cord is bad for the motor.

3. Less hassling with extension cords.

Your choice, just thought I would mention it. When I used to detail full time I preferred to have a long cord wired into my tools than screw around with extension cords.


:)

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 01:08 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
As for the Lake Country ThinPro pads, the grey is REALLY aggressive so I don't think you'll need that one. the orange is a cutting pad and the white is a polishing pad. My guess is you can get away with just the orange pads but you want more than one or two because trying to buff out large items like boats and even cars with only a few pads simply wears the pad out quickly from the heat, pressure and violent oscillation action these tools put the pads through.

:)

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 01:27 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Hang tight, having connectivity issues with my computer.

Posting this via my phone

:)

Mike Phillips 09-07-2016 03:47 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
My computer access is still down

I have some more info and pictures for you.

:)

magRT496 09-08-2016 12:56 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Thanks for all the info Mike! All my detailing will be on a dry surface. If the Griot's polisher is more powerful then I'm in for that. Also I wouldn't mind doing some compounding if I needed to so I can get a nice shine back on it. As for the tough spots on the transom maybe some 3" pads would help?

Mike Phillips 09-08-2016 10:20 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1417)

Thanks for all the info Mike! All my detailing will be on a dry surface. If the Griot's polisher is more powerful then I'm in for that. Also I wouldn't mind doing some compounding if I needed to so I can get a nice shine back on it.


Sorry for the delay yesterday, had a technical problem on our side.



Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1417)

As for the tough spots on the transom maybe some 3" pads would help?

Allow me to get back to what I was trying to post before we lost Internet connectivity in my office.


:)

Mike Phillips 09-08-2016 10:21 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Here's my recommendation...

Porter Cable DA Polisher

Or

Griot's Garage DA Polisher

5" Backing plate

Lake Country ThinPro 5.5" pads (these fit the 5" backing plate



This shows you exactly how to use the PC but everything applies to the Griot's too.... right now it comes free with the PC but not the Griot's.



How to Properly Use the Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher


This one-step cleaner/wax works really well. Cuts oxidation, polishes and leaves the surface shiny and protected.


Marine 31 Gel Coat Heavy-Cut Cleaner Wax 32 oz



If the above ends up not being aggressive enough, (but I think it will), this just means you need to get more aggressive so use the same product with the Lake Country ThinPro GREY pads which are very sharp and aggressive.


Also you can get the ThinPro pads in 3.5" diameter size and you can get a 3" backing plate to use with either the PC or the Griot's for buffing tight areas.


Here's the Porter Cable 7424XP, 5" backing plate, 3" backing plate, PC wrench and 3.5" ThinPro foam cutting pad. Same backing plates will fit on the Griot's Garage 6" Dual Action Polisher


http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_01.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_02.jpg



Don't ever lose the compression washer. Running buffer with out it will make a horrible sound and create so much more heat at the center of the backing plate it will destroy both the backing plate and the pads.

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_03.jpg



To swap backing plates, you slide the wrench between the backing plate (when it's on the tool), and the housing.

IMPORTANT - Insert the tool from the opposite side of the counterweight. Again, same idea applies to the Griot's version of the PC.

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_04.jpg



Here's the PC set up with 3.5" pads and 5.5" pads - You can do the same thing with the Griot's DA

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_05.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_06.jpg



Place a black mark on the back of both backing plates to make it easy for your eyes to monitor pad rotation. Because these are free spinning polishers, that is they are NOT gear-driven like the FLEX 3401 Orbital Polishers it's possible for the pad to stop rotating if you hold the tool so the pad is not flat to the surface. The black mark makes it easy for the human eye to monitor pad rotation or lack of rotation.

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_07.jpg



If your backing plate comes with a rubber nut to hold the compression washer in place, don't lose it and use it when swapping out backing plates to keep the washer from getting lost.

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_08.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_09.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...tBuffer_10.jpg


And we sell 5-packs of compression washers in case you do lose them...


Hope that helps... if you need help getting any of this stuff call customer care and share this thread with them...


1-800-869-3011

Thank you for your patience while I was experiencing some connectivity issues....


:)

Mike Phillips 09-08-2016 10:34 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1417)
Thanks for all the info Mike! All my detailing will be on a dry surface. If the Griot's polisher is more powerful then I'm in for that. Also I wouldn't mind doing some compounding if I needed to so I can get a nice shine back on it. As for the tough spots on the transom maybe some 3" pads would help?


Just added pictures to post #10


Hope this helps...


:)

magRT496 09-16-2016 02:53 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Hey Mike sorry for the delay in replying, I've been traveling.

Ok so this is what im thinking ill pick up so far

Griots Garage 6 Inch Random Orbital Polisher

Dual-Action Hook & Loop Flexible Backing Plate 5"

5.5 Inch ThinPro Orange Heavy Cutting Pad x3

3 Inch Dual Action Flexible Backing Plate (for tight areas)

3.5 Inch ThinPro Orange Heavy Cutting Pad x3

3.5 Inch ThinPro Grey Extreme Cutting Pad (maybe 1 or 2 of these for heavily oxidized areas? The only spots that are bad are on the transom and on top of the gunnels so a 3" should be ok right?)

Marine 31 Gel Coat Heavy-Cut Cleaner Wax 32 oz.

Marine 31 Spray Polishing Pad Care Combo

How does this look? Should i add anything else? I wouldnt mind going over the boat again with polish/wax to protect it better and add more shine. Unless you think its overkill.

Thanks agian for all the great info. I cant wait to order this stuff and get the boat cleaned up

magRT496 09-21-2016 11:34 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
any input on the pad selection Mike?

I also want to clean up the windshield with the eisenglass kit, will the orange pads work?

Mike Phillips 10-17-2016 03:09 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1422)
any input on the pad selection Mike?

I also want to clean up the windshield with the eisenglass kit, will the orange pads work?


That looks good...


Sorry but I was travelling too... was at the Indy Motor Speedway teaching a 3-day class and the filming a new episodie of our TV show.

Back in the office all this week and until we leave for SEMA


:)

magRT496 02-14-2017 03:10 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Hey Mike,

I finally got around to working on the boat. I picked up the Griots 6" buffer, the lake country orange thin pro pads, and the heavy cut cleaner wax. This combo did a great job removing any oxidation and putting a smooth shine on the gel coat.
But it didnt seem to be cutting the gel coat much at all. There's some very faint yellow stains on the sides of the hull and the orange pad didnt touch it. It even had a hard time with the little black spots and stains.

Then I went and picked up the lake country thin wool pads as recommended in your detailing book. I did notice the foam/wool combo pads lets more swirls on the surface and still didnt really touch the stains.

Should I try the grey pad? If that wont help I may just pick up the Flex 3401 to get the job done right like i should have originally.

And last question.... Ive noticed the bottom of hull is taking on a slight yellowish tint. Occasionally its sits in the water over night because the marina closed before i got back. Can i use the cleaner wax and buff the bottom?

Thanks.

Mike Phillips 02-28-2017 12:25 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1444)
Hey Mike,

I finally got around to working on the boat. I picked up the Griots 6" buffer, the lake country orange thin pro pads, and the heavy cut cleaner wax. This combo did a great job removing any oxidation and putting a smooth shine on the gel coat.
But it didnt seem to be cutting the gel coat much at all. There's some very faint yellow stains on the sides of the hull and the orange pad didnt touch it. It even had a hard time with the little black spots and stains.

Then I went and picked up the lake country thin wool pads as recommended in your detailing book. I did notice the foam/wool combo pads lets more swirls on the surface and still didnt really touch the stains.

Should I try the grey pad? If that wont help I may just pick up the Flex 3401 to get the job done right like i should have originally.

And last question.... Ive noticed the bottom of hull is taking on a slight yellowish tint. Occasionally its sits in the water over night because the marina closed before i got back. Can i use the cleaner wax and buff the bottom?

Thanks.


Well when it comes to this kind of work

More power is better


For anyone detailing neglected boats you really want to star with a rotary buffer and finish with an orbital if you don't want to inflict holograms into the gel-coat.


The FLEX 3401 has a TON more power than any free spinning orbital and that's just the reality of it.

And of course a rotary buffer has more cutting power than a FLEX 3401 it's just they tend to leave holograms in the surface when using fiber pads and aggressive compounds and polishes.


:)

magRT496 03-09-2017 10:48 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Marine31 (Post 1445)
Well when it comes to this kind of work

More power is better


For anyone detailing neglected boats you really want to star with a rotary buffer and finish with an orbital if you don't want to inflict holograms into the gel-coat.


The FLEX 3401 has a TON more power than any free spinning orbital and that's just the reality of it.

And of course a rotary buffer has more cutting power than a FLEX 3401 it's just they tend to leave holograms in the surface when using fiber pads and aggressive compounds and polishes.


:)

Thanks. I'm going to try a lake country thin pro grey pad and maybe some of the heavy cut oxidation cleaner. If that doesn't work I'll most likely be upgrading to the flex 3401.

Other than not touching the yellow stains I got some nice results with just the griots, orange pad and the cleaner wax. I'll post some pics below.

magRT496 03-09-2017 11:39 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_...ew?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...3pJU2VkY1BuRmM
before
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...T1VvUmshttp://
after

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...HlEbUt3aXhlb2M
before
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...zRPNXhGSXJUWW8
after

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...XpKbGx5M3FqWGs
after


Here's the yellow streaks. They're hard to see but if you stand back a little bit they're there.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...GFGamxXTUNmR1U

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...Xp6TW1BNlJhVnM

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...08zekswcHd4ZnM

If anyone has any ideas let me know. The griots works well but it took a long time. My advice to anyone else is just get the flex. This was my first time and it's not very hard just time consuming.

Mike Phillips 04-26-2017 06:54 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
I did my best to unscramble all your Google drive code for your pictures, download them to my computer. Then resize them to 800 pixels wide.

Then upload them to your free gallery here on this forum so they can be displayed correctly and won't disappear over time.


http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_001.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_002.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_003.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_004.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_005.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_006.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_007.JPG

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...gRT496_008.JPG



Here's the link to your gallery here on Marine 31


http://www.marine31online.com/galler...-magrt496.html






:)

Mike Phillips 04-26-2017 07:04 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1447)


Here's the yellow streaks. They're hard to see but if you stand back a little bit they're there. If anyone has any ideas let me know.

My guess is the yellow streaks are a tannin stain. If the cleaner/wax didn't remove them then you'll have to go with a compound.

Removing stains is just a matter of removing more gel-coat. Gel-coat is somewhat porous and the tannin stains penetrate INTO the gel-coat. Thus abrading the surface will remove more gel-coat and thus remove the staining.


Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1447)

The griots works well but it took a long time.

My advice to anyone else is just get the flex.


I think I stressed this in a friendly way in my boat detailing book. I know for a lot of guys it's easy to spend $100.00 on a tool versus $400.00 for a FLEX 3401 but the GEAR DRIVEN FLEX 3401 will work both faster and better since the pad won't stall out and stop spinning.

When you use free spinning tools like the Griot's, Porter Cable, Meguiar's MT300, etc., when the pad stalls out or stops spinning - you're not doing anything.

There are actually some "gurus" in this industry that will argue with you that a free spinning orbital polisher can remove swirls when the pad is NOT rotating and for the most part only vibrating or jiggling against the surface I'd say they've drank the Kool-Aid.

:gathering:


When I wrote my how-to book, I included all the tools sold by Autogeek/Marine 31 but for the cover, I purposefully chose the tool that I believe is the best all-around tool for boat detailing for the cover.

The cover of the book is the MOST VALUABLE piece of book real-estate if you think about it.

See the tool I chose for the cover? Also the pad?

http://www.marine31online.com/galler...Boat_Cover.jpg




Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1447)

This was my first time and it's not very hard just time consuming.


Yep... boat are big, gel-coat is hard and the work is time consuming.

You done did good though!


:thumb:

magRT496 08-15-2017 01:21 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
5 Attachment(s)
Ok so big update - I caved and bought the Flex 3401. This tool is fantastic. It really gave me some great results and saved a lot of time. I attached a picture of my special edition pink flex. I chose the color because it came with a free bag but I actually kind of like the pink now lol.

I used an electrified wool pad and the captains one step compound and polish. The captains compound is really great stuff, and combined with the flex, made my 15 year old boat look damn near brand new.

Also, the yellowish tint that I thought was a stain was actually from a decal the previous owner removed. The captains compound actually blended it in pretty well and its a lot harder to see now.

magRT496 08-15-2017 04:35 PM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Forgot to add I also put on a coat of the marine 31 wax and sealant. How often does this need to be reapplied?

Mike Phillips 08-29-2017 11:44 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1468)

Ok so big update - I caved and bought the Flex 3401. This tool is fantastic. It really gave me some great results and saved a lot of time.

And this is why I featured it on the most valuable portion of any how-to book and that's on the front cover.


Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1468)

I used an electrified wool pad and the captains one step compound and polish. The captains compound is really great stuff, and combined with the flex, made my 15 year old boat look damn near brand new.

And anyone that's read my book knows I strongly recommend this compound as it cuts great and finishes out like a polish and for most boat owns this is what they want and by cutting out the polishing step you save a lot of time.


Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1468)

Also, the yellowish tint that I thought was a stain was actually from a decal the previous owner removed.

The captains compound actually blended it in pretty well and its a lot harder to see now.

And sometimes that's about all you can do without going nuts and sanding really deep into the gel-coat and even then it can be difficult to get 100% removed.


:)

Mike Phillips 08-29-2017 11:48 AM

Re: Help selecting a buffer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magRT496 (Post 1469)

Forgot to add I also put on a coat of the marine 31 wax and sealant.

How often does this need to be reapplied?


Depends on how you use the boat.

IF the boat is never used and stored inside a boat barn then you won't have to apply it very often.

If the boat is on the water 7 days a week and 24 hours a day then you'll have to apply it more often.

Saltwater environments are even worse.

The key to keeping your boat looking like it does right now is an old quote of mine,


"Find something you like and use it often"


And in most cases for boats with gel-coat hulls that easily oxidize, you want to use a one-step cleaner/wax.

There are two in the Marine 31 Line, a heavy cut and a light cut.

If you buff your boat once a year get the heavy cut and apply with the FLEX 3401 and the wool pad.

If you buff your boat twice a year get the light cut and buff with the FLEX 3401 and a wool pad.


:)


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